The Gown Student Newspaper at Queen's University Belfast

Isn't it stunning how some people's views can seem so utterly and fundamentally different from your own, that you find it hard to believe that you grew up in the same country...?

Makes me want to tear my hair out sometimes. It is so frustrating to see people formulate these long and supposedly historically informed arguments (whilst obviously bringing up entirely unrelated issued to, just for the craic), and overlook major issues simulataneously, because they are literally unable to see any side other than their own.

As I say, at first it is unbelieveably frustrating. Then you just think "what's the point in even trying?"

I suppose this is the New Northern Ireland, folks. Isn't it awesome? ;)

(for the record, it is, but only when everyone pretends the troubles and/or politics doesn't exist. then ocassionally we remember that they do, and everything goes balls up again.)

Perception being the operative word.

All you have served to do here with your slurs and Nazi comparisons is to demonstrate your own inherent bigotry fuelled by ignorance.

Your false 'perceptions' is down to your own ignorance and intolerance, it is you who has the issue and needs to educate yourself and "deal with it", sir.

so because I presume to remain annonymous, in some manner this detracts from my viewpoint...

Let me reiterate...it is a fact that the majority of both Nationalists and Catholics perceive the OO to be a bigoted anti-Catholic organisation...

If this hurts, deal with it.

Except there has been no expression on intolerance or bigotry from the Orange Society at any stage. =/

Nothing like a bit of bigotry to expose more bigotry. What a hideously polarised thread.

'No, you see, it’s about hating Catholics, not blacks. It’s maddening – the Order grew out of hatred and violence. Pluralism must still have limits; why tolerate an organisation built entirely on intransigent intolerance? That’s farcical. And more profoundly Orwellian. Co-opting the language of liberal moderation to defend gormless, naked sectarianism? As if it was nothing more insidious than the bloody Riverdance? Of course, if you’re defending them you’re beyond help.'

It is not about hating Catholics. Do you actually know what happens at the meeting of an Orange Lodge. A few prayers are said, men swap pleasantries, a cup of tea is consumed, a bible reading is read and then everybody departs. It is hardly sinister. Of course there may be elements within the Order that are explicitly sectarian (though Catholic neighbours carrying out a Protestant farmer's duties on the Twelfth is not uncommon) but that is the sad byproduct of a sectarian society.

The area where the Orange Order emerged was an extremely sectarian area, however it was intolerance of Protestantism that was the issue. Hundreds upon hundreds of Protestants were brutally slaughtered in this part of the world during the 1641 Rebellion, and many more right up to the present day. This created the need for Protestant solidarity, it is natural to gather together for mutual protection and comfort in times of trial.

You have displayed little knowledge of context or history in your argument, so I'm afraid it is you who is beyond help in this situation. Groups like the Orange Order and the AOH cannot be judged purely from a 21st century perspective. You have to look into the annals of history to even begin to understand their meaning.

as stated above its easy to make comparisons and express opinions on people who you have never even met before. Perhaps the simple solution is to go along and meet some of the members of the orange society at one of their events, see what they are like as people before you automatically jump to conclusions about them. Jumping to conclusions about people is a sure sign of your own bigoted opinions and that you arent willing to go and meet the people face to face and see what they are really like .

Just to respond to the comment made by the bigot two posts up. "Realist", and the fools like him, who make such disgusting comparisons only serve to illustrate that they are the true fundamentalist bigots.

All reasonable people will know how perverse such comparisons are. To back up the point made by "Democrat", any organisation promoting a particular religious or political philosophy does just that. The Orange Order is not about anti-Catholic, it is merely a Protestant fraternity.

I would like to challenge "Realist" to declare his identity, instead of making such ludicrous slurs under the protection of an alias.

Curious how many people can talk about how hateful and bigoted a society is, given that it is unlikely that any of those criticising have ever attended an Orange Society event or meeting.

The society, as with the trip, is not exclusive Orange Order members, it is not an Orange lodge as outlines most of those who attend are not OO members.

“I believe in.. a concept of Irishness that is not simply Catholic, Gaelic and Nationalist… in Ireland as the homeland of Orange and Green… creating a warm place... for those of the Orange tradition is not capable of being achieved overnight.” Michael McDowell, Minister for Justice and PD TD for Dublin South-east

again if you actually got your facts right you would notice that Qub orange society is open to anyone and most of the members arent members of the orange institution nor are they a catholic hating organisation

a bunch of anti-catholic fundamentalist bigots, thats the description the majority of Nationalists hold concerning the Orange order.

Now an orange society is given money to visit their "founder"...

imagine if the American Nazi party were given funds to visit the birth place of George Lincoln Rockwell..

I think Rule 21 of the GAA (and what happens to those who oppose it) tells us all we need to know about its lack of sectarianism.

in relation to the comment by graceless maybe you should go and look up Rule 21 which was only repealed in 2001 -GAA's ban on British security forces playing gaelic games

thats very strange peep o day cause being an official Queens society everyone is welcome to come to any of its events. Oh and its very interesting that members of the catholic community have attended events before and even better than that many members of the society have catholic family members. whoes got the bigoted opinions now ?

"Comparisons with the Klu Klux Klan are derisory and based in nothing but prejudiced fantasy. There are numerous Orange Lodges across the globe, including many on the continent of Africa. Orangeism may be homogenous in terms of religious makeup, but surely it is not the only group to display homogenous traits? That is one of the principle functions of a grouping, a gathering of likeminded individuals."

No, you see, it's about hating Catholics, not blacks. It's maddening - the Order grew out of hatred and violence. Pluralism must still have limits; why tolerate an organisation built entirely on intransigent intolerance? That's farcical. And more profoundly Orwellian. Co-opting the language of liberal moderation to defend gormless, naked sectarianism? As if it was nothing more insidious than the bloody Riverdance? Of course, if you're defending them you're beyond help.

A bunch of bigots, nothing more, nothing less. It's shameful that SU funding goes to this. www.facebook.com/belfastholylands

Peep O'Day Commentator casts mere aspersions and stereotypes which are typical of those who claim to extol the virtues of democracy and pluralism. A true believer in pluralism would accept that the Orange Order fulfills a necessary role in modern life. It acts as a focal point for the Protestant community, in a similar vein as to what the GAA does for the Catholic community.

Comparisons with the Klu Klux Klan are derisory and based in nothing but prejudiced fantasy. There are numerous Orange Lodges across the globe, including many on the continent of Africa. Orangeism may be homogenous in terms of religious makeup, but surely it is not the only group to display homogenous traits? That is one of the principle functions of a grouping, a gathering of likeminded individuals.

The stereotypical statements made above about the Orange Order are simply statements of prejudice and intolerance of a way of life disliked by those who know little of it. Orwellian pluralism at its best. 'All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.'

in response to Peep O'Day's comment calling the orange society "...a moral equivalent to the American Ku Klux Klan" this is unfounded based on the fact that the orange order has brethren in africa including Togo and Ghana and a mowhawk indian lodge in Canada so the racist comparison being made here is fallicious

The Gaa is an excellent sporting club at queens. The point was simply being made that anyone is entitled to apply for funding from the annual fund.

Peep O'Day commenter's appeal to liberal democracy and pluralism are heartening. It is odd therefore that, guided by the prinicples and values of democracy, liberalism and pluralism, his/her ideal world would have no place for such 'nostalgia' and 'nonsense'.

The descriptive terms like 'pogrom' and 'tribal' strain credulity, but liberalism, democracy and pluralism entitle him/her to hold those views. I suppose tolerance is about tolerating things you dislike rather than just the things that please you or with which you agree. I disagree with Peep O'Day, but, personally speaking, I think modern liberal democracy and pluralism has room for the views that he/she holds :)

I would encourage Peep O'Day commenter maybe to test his/her views with the Orange Society members, who may find his/her comparison with the Ku Klux Klan somewhat disparaging, rather than relying on wikipedia and partial representation.

I think penny has summed up the view I hold on the Annual Fund issue.

Aye, but the GAA isn't an explicitly sectarian organisation, is it? And it grew out of...jeypers I dunno, a true sense of indigenous culture, wanting to kick a ball around...the Order? That grew out of kicking rural Catholics around and breaking rural trade unions. Not quite the same thing.

just for reference any queens club or society is able to apply for annual fund money - i think you'll find that queens ladies gaa was able to secure funding last year for sports kits which they were fully entitled to do .This information can be found on the annual fund website. Also the annual fund decides where money is given and projects go through a number of committees, its independent of the students union and is non of their concern.

I think the orange society should be commended for organising this trip. As discussed on the SUTV thread, the Annual Fund does not give out money on a whim and has a rigorous application procedure as well as requesting follow up reports. Any society can and should get in touch with the Annual Fund if they want support for a viable project. Also, if you flick back a few pages through the gown news reel, you can see a announcement from the orange society inviting people who wished to go or who wanted to know more about the project way back when. This might have been an oportunity for an investigation/questions? albeit via a small route?

Although an anouncement was in the gown I wonder did the orange society get in touch with any other societies, such as politics or history to invite a few members along? Inviting sabbs etc along is all well and good, but many history and politics students, such as those history student studying Prof Hayton's Ireland and Britain module would have benefited/enjoyed the outing?

I also have to laff a lil at the name- The Dan Winters Project. Seems over the top.

I dont have a problem with the Orange society being given money to go on a trip like this. Just as long as the same offer is made available to the "other side of the community" as it were to go on a trip of their own.

How about a trip down to Dublin around Easter to commemorate the 1916 rising some time? Or closer to home there are many Gaelic League sites in the north that deserve a daytrip.

What a disgrace.

Graduates' money for a day trip to this 'historic site'? Commemorate pogroms and sectarian lynching on your own bloody money.

The dressing up of what is the moral equivalent of the American Ku Klux Klan in bland, New Laboury terms, as above, is even more insulting.

The Gown should investigate how this came about. Again, an absolute, thundering disgrace.

PS, Accusations that this comment is sectarian will be treated with the disdain they deserve; such pogrom-nostalgia and brutish tribal nonsense should have no place in any pluralistic, modern democracy, regardless of their political, ethnic or religious justification.

People criticised SUTV and other projects for using Annual Fund money yet no concerns are aired about this?