The Gown Student Newspaper at Queen's University Belfast

@ Bemused

The OO organises a mass demonstration, to which people come from far and wide to show their support of a parade which goes through an area in which they are not welcome.

Look at the simple scenario, two communities in a standoff. Going by your comment, one of these communities is allowed the support of their wider community, whilst the other is not. That is not fair.

Take another example of this, Drumcree, were all the rioters at Drumcree from Portadown? The simple answer is no, but they wanted to show their support for the Drumcree standoff.

nice post. thanks.

Ben, how can you say the Orange Order handed the rioters the excuse on a plate?

The reality is as you reported yourself
1. They were recreational rioters.

2. There is never an excuse for rioting.

3.You cannot travel 1.5 hours to be offended (as some rioters from Armagh did).

4. There can be no direct link between OO march, then riots happen.

5.People choose to riot and cause disturbance.

6.The majority of parades pass off peacefully.

Someone give Yer Ma a pint or a medal.

I love Yer Ma.

@Achara,

Folks who "base their predjudice on hearsay, pan nationalist propaganda and biased media reports", you forgot about personal experience their mo Chara! For a start I would like to point out that I have several friends and neighbours involved with the OO, and by and large, they are respectable, law abiding men, many of whom I would think more of than some of my fellow co-religionists. However, the fact remains, and by all means, catholics have engaged in similar activites, but definatly not to the same extent, that the OO have been instrumental in maintaining the concept of a protestant ascendancy, in terms of land ownership, and employment to a much greater degree than any thing catholics have done. Ihave been subjected to serious sectarian harassment at the behest of members of the OO, coming back from marches, for having the sheer cheek of wearing my County GAA jersey. I have neighbours who were burnt out of their homes in the neighbouring village by some members of the OO for the fact that they were catholic. While this activity is in no way representative of all the membership, it is the activity that forms the impression in the minds of most catholics.
@ Thomas
You seem to mistake "Republicans at Queens are really rattled", for Republicans, and indeed several neutral commentators, are rather perturbed that the pro Orange contributers are failing to grasp the concept that not every person in the six counties looks towards the OO are a source of cultural inspiration. Every criticism leveled against the OO has been met with the almost predictable, well your lot did this, that or the other. I've already stated that the Republican tradition has a dark past, and I'm still waiting on a similar comment about the OO.

well, there we are, 10 comments from Queen's students about a new graduate tax proposal and four times that number of comments about the Twelfth and subsequent riots.

What, if anything, does that tell us about Queen's students priorities?

'myself at 16' i have been trying to put forward the pro orange side and not just lash out wildly as other respondents are doing, i think achara above makes good points to answer your questions. first the benefits of membership, back in 1795 when first founded the main benefit of membership was the social aspect and the chance to travel and meet friends back in the pre tv days and the other option was sitting by the fire with the wife, indeed the social side is for many still the main attraction as the 12th is the only time during a year that folk will see each other, particulary the rural areas that barely register with belfast folk, there is the religious aspect, not mentioned really by anyone here and granted taken more serioulsy by some lodges than others but fact is even if the 'followers' of the order and people who show up at events have no religious persuasion thats not the orders fault and the anti social elements are not welcome in lodges, fact is lodge meetings by constitution have to include a bible reading and thats no bad thing by me, 12th celebrations include speeches from the platform which this year at lurgan 12th were on faith loyalty and a motion of thanks, if oo events can expose the word of god to someone not familiar with it then great, and as mentioned before the vast majority, over 97 percent, of oo walks are to church and back along a traditional route not picked because catholics live there and wont like it, orangemen were walking the garvaghy road in portadown in 1810 literally hundreds of years before catholics became the main denomination represented there. on the orange sash or collarette if you bother to look you will likely see among other symbols an open bible, a star of david or jacobs ladder, the steps taken to represent faith hope and charity. the history is another benefit, the fact that the glorious revolution was perhaps the key event in shaping the modern day blue print for constitutional democracies worldwide, and also the civil and religious liberties for all which was in fact a phrase used in the declaration at the easter rising and the notion becoming the backbone of society in britain and gradually across the world since the battle of the boyne, also back in the days when the oo was recently formed it was common practice for events in which different guilds would take part in parades around towns such as carpenters and smiths, generally to coincide with the particular saints day on which they occured, small scale events such as saint clements day celebration in devon for blacksmiths tske place but are no match for the 12th in terms of numbers present, it is only the oo which has lasted so long, the best comparision i can think of is the cheese market in arnhem holland which has taken place almost weekly since the 1500's, and is a major toursit attraction for the town as it goes, history and culture doesnt come easy or quickly, and the cultural side and expression of identity that comes with being part of an organisation is obvious. i think all that feeds into why people see it as a part of their culture, an orange collarette is as much an expression of identity and culture as a hurley bat really. about your accusation of burning imagery that is not in any way a part of the orange order, bonfires are organised by the local community in which they take place, undertaken by 5 or 6 individuals who have always done it and the makeup of those groups personnel changing over the years, thats not to say there is no historical relevance, bonfires and beacons were lit along belfast lough and carrickfergus to guide william iii into ireland on his way to the battle of the boyne, and bonfires were lit up the east coast of ireland to spread the news of victory, personally i dont agree with the burning of imagery on bonfires but the fact is it is not the oo that organises them. hopefully that dispells some of what you believe, ignorance of something naturally breeds hatred of it is a paraphrase of some of orwells works, just to add year on year a greater attempt has been made by the police to prevent unlawful behaviour such as underage drinking, i have seen orange men take drink away from youths and the fact that so many people attend 12th events probably doesnt help police in stamping it all out. to finish i said above 'at least' orangefest etc are attempts to attract tourists, not perfect and much criticised but 'at least' they are attempts, the oo isnt sitting around being stubborn it is trying to find its place in modern day society and even if thus far it hasnt worked at least applaud the sentiment behind trying to boost tourism in this country, it is trying to make an effort. this argument is all fact based im not anti anyone, i just think its insane to try and brand 4 nights of rioting as the fault of the orange order, it is the fault of the youths who did it, the parents who let them and the social situation in these working class areas that has created these kind of problems for over thirty years, the orange cannot be blamed for what happened in ardoyne, lurgan bogside or anywhere else, fact. here i stand i can do no other!

Anyone read Owen Polley's column in today's Irish News?

He focuses on what he describes is SF's insistence/persistence criticising the PSNI's way of dealing with things such as the violence round the 12th, and then describes the PSNI as one of the world's most restrained forces, giving examples of ways in which they acted professionally and fairly over the violence in Ardoyne.

It was, however, in my view quite a "through rose tinted glasses" outlook. He didn't have one bad word to say about the PSNI.

Maybe he's right. Maybe the PSNI are absolutely fabulous.

But I'd doubt that.

Especially on a day when the Irish News editorial focuses on the way in which the reality of the man killed by Met Police during the G20 protests was covered up and the guilty police man will not be prosecuted.

It is wrong to completely praise the police force.

I know we no longer have the RUC, BUT today's Belfast Tele runs a feature on Pat Finucane and how collusion was involved in his murder.

I'm probably going about this in an awful way, and will no doubt get slammed for it, but my point is that it's beyond foolish to wholeheartedly and flamboyantly praise ANY police force in light of crimes committed by them the world over, in every era. It's a feature which looks set to continue, so we should reserve our praise.

And for the benefit of OO supporters on here who seem to be of the opinion that republicans/Catholics don't condemn the ridiculous violence and rioting in the Ardoyne... I CONDEMN IT. It shouldn't happen. It's a downright disgrace to see young people (both Catholics AND Protestants, many who are probably from dysfuncional social backgrounds and family set-ups) behaving in such a way.

I think this article seems to miss the point. Even if the orange order are the 'cause' of the problem this in no way gives anyone the 'right' or justification to riot for 4 nights in a row. The republicain community are going to have to understand that just because they dont like the orange order doesnt give them the right to riot and destroy orange halls. For communities who talked about civil rights and freedom of expression for years they are doing an excellent job at oppressing and restricting the rights of others to enjoy their culture, and no im not talking about the right to parade. Im talking about the right to have their halls free from damage and the right to exist. As for comments such as the institution is the same as the nazis or kkk this is quite funny as there are over 360 members in africain countries such as Ghana.

Its pretty obvious that alot of the folks trying to put the boot into the Ornge Order, base their predjudice on hearsay, pan nationalist propaganda and biased media reports. Maybe you should shut up for a while and make an effort to understand what makes your neighbours in the Orange Order tick. You might actually find out that the Orange Order does not build bonfires, does parade along routes because it links their starting point to their desination, not because its a republican ghetto, has absolutely nothing in commom with KKK, does not hate Roman Catholics, does take to task the anti scriptural teachings of the Roman Catholic church. Coming from armagh I can confirm to Ben Finch that there was no Orange Parade anywhere near the Friary road on the 12th when republicans saw the need to hijack cars and burn them.

If they also read the irish news fully you would see the Irish government wants to make the 12th an annual holiday in the south ! Dont see anyone complaining when they get the 12th off work

I'm disappointed with the lack of form this sham of a debate has taken. OO supporters or whatever we're calling them on here have yet to make a proper argument about the OO. What benefits they get from it and why it's a "cultural" thing, they haven't denied burning imagery either. Rather they point to irrelevant anti-republican/Catholicism/whoever opposes them arguments.

St Paddy's, IRA/UVF/Other idiots who haven't learned the fighting is over yet, who bombed who first, The dinosaurs and other ancient history, RA songs, GAA, that Sinn Fein pen I got free at Freshers and then lent to a girl in my class one day causing her to frown at it, if dumbledore really is gay, and the little blue DUP teddybear I also got at freshers and cut the ribbon off of (I call him Jack) are all irrelevant.

Please try to make pro OO arguments against the stated cons in the comments above.

What a pile of shite all of this is.

One riot in Ardoyne, which could easily be prevented, does not equate to the multitude of crimes carried out by the protestant community over the 11th and 12th of July with absolutely no lawful intervention.

"while orangefest has been rubbished above at least its an attempt to make the 12th into a genuine tourist attraction"

A tourist attraction? Now, come on and get real.

I read a report in The Irish News with stats that said that there was more under-age drinkers present at 12th celebrations than there were tourists.

What's in it for tourists?

well its good we can assume who is catholic and who is a prod lets all be friends, all in the past, hold hands, it would be easy for me to point out the ira songs i've heard sung at the elms village on sunny afternoons or that UDR/RUC did not deserve to be murdered while attempting to uphold law and order but focus please i thought this was about the orange order, bonfires gaa etc all outside this, reasonable enough for you yet, the oo is meant to be a pro protestant organisation not an anti catholic one, if its sectarian that catholics cant join then lets point the finger at the womens institute for discriminating against men, fifa for saying i cant play football for togo, ulster womens hockey for not letting me join, the orange has made a number of attempts over the years to be more acceptable to everyone and while orangefest has been rubbished above at least its an attempt to make the 12th into a genuine tourist attraction and the fact that over half a million people in our wee country are present on the day proves that potential, order has its problems but any one who makes the decision to throw stones, petrol bombs, fire guns and attempt to cause harm and murder fellow humans is responsible for their own actions, not an organisation that spents the majority of its time renting out halls to community organisations and drinking tea over bible readings and general chit chat, its not the big bad bogeyman that various people like to make it out to be

if we want to play the blame game and judge the orange order for its past and foundations in 1795 and the few bad roughs who were members, maybe its about time a few members of sinn fein stood up and admmitted their past as ira terrorists who murdered more innocent roman catholics in their time than protestants.

The Republicans at Queens are really rattled on here. Let's all move on and embrace a shared future where every culture is respected and tolerated. The days of republicans dominating at Queens are over, and they won't return. I find it hilarious that you won't allow unionists to speak of a shared future because once again it goes against your will for us. We are free and happy to speak of tolerance and a shared future. That analogy of the battered wife is starting to sound even more apt!

Is it just me or are the "Catholics" on here more willing and ready to be reasonable than the "protestants"?

@Thomas@forgot
I find the comparison with acts of domestic violence, immature and down right disrespectful. Nationalists do not want the Orange Order to play the 'good wife', but rather, the good neighbour. So 'Northern Ireland is a shared space'? Catch yourself on. Are you thinking about joining the Alliance party any time soon? It is highly hypocritical of somebody from a Unionist viewpoint to claim a shared space when Unionist areas are bedecked in red white and blue, Union Jacks and UVF/UDA flags at this time of year, territorialism isn't a Nationalist phenomenon, its clearly an integral part of the unionist mindset too. As a Republican (gasp) I find it highly disrespectful of our flag to be used to mark out and delineate areas, are you as embarrased by the use of your flag for the same ends.
Nowhere has anyone tried to "out 'RA the Dissidents".
about this ?
Acts of genocide along the border? Theres a stretch of the imagination! All these innocent Protestant Farmers, who just so happened to be members of the UDR/RUC?
Both communities were responsible for atrocities, for every La Mon and Teebane, there was a Greysteel and Loughlinisland or Bloody Sunday. However, I would appreciate it if you could point out an opposite number, an organisational on the catholic side of the fence, who could in any way mirror the Orange Order as an Organisation. And please don't bring your intelligence into disrepute, or your bigotry into the bright light of day by claiming that it's the GAA.

@ forgot about this ?

IRA t-shirts? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I've been wandering around Holylands on St. Patrick's Day for the past four years just to see the eejits make fools of themselves, and watch Queen's men try to sort them, and I have yet to see an "IRA t-shirt". Heck, I kind of want one. Could I get one on ebay? They sould hilarious. And yes, there are a number of people in the Holylands on St. Patrick's Day who are an absolute embarassment to themselves, their families, the Irish tradition of St. Patrick's Day and if we want to go the full hog, Ireland itself. You can bet your bottom dollar that every single (bar about ten total idiots) Catholic/Republican at Queen's (note to Thomas, it's Queen's not Queens)would be embarassed by the drunken and stupid behaviour of the minority. Of course they're embarrassed by them. They're complete idiots who would need a good punishment. Might fit them better than to be rolling around shouting sectarian crap, acting the part of armchair republicans.

I have never seen them do it but if they took out a union jack and burned it I'd hang my head in shame and embarrassment, and actually be devastated to be a Catholic watching them.

Now, would any of the OO supporters condemn the immature, spiteful, disgusting and backward action of burning tricolours etc?

Bet you wouldn't. Because it's "culture" and "tradition".

AYE RIGHT.

The article is a bit like an abusive husband saying I battered my wife because I didn't like her having her own mind and doing her own thing. If only she had listened to me and done what I said, then I would never have had to batter her. I'm the real victim in all of this, not her. She caused it. I had no other option but to lift my fists to her.

In Northern Ireland we need to move away from the ghettos of the past. One community cannot claim or own an area or road. That is completely unacceptable in 21st modern Europe. Northern Ireland is a shared space.

Republicans at Queens are clearly rattled by this because the "good old days" of Sinn Fein sponsored republican violence are over and a new era of peace and stability and cooperation with the police are here to stay. Embrace the new reality of a shared future and stop trying to out "ra" the dissidents.

its interesting that no one comments on the bigoted diplays that take place in the holylands each year with ira t_shirts songs and comments such as we deiver pizzas being shouted at the police force after the murders in antrim- lets not forget that it wasnt long ago that orangemen were being killed in cold blood in orange halls, 360 were murdered during the troubles. Maybe people forget the genocide the ira carried out around the border murdering protestant farmers and their sons.

nábídána, 'burning the Tricolour, well that’s just silly and wrong', ach well why didn't you say that in the first place, thats alright then, it's just silly. It's more than silly, it's downright insulting. A number of years ago, a halloween bonfire outside Newtonstewart (outside Omagh) had a Union Jack placed on it. The uproar from Unionist was deafening, yet every year, with silence on the Unionist side or muttered remarks about, 'tis kultural so it is', My National flag, GAA flags, effigies of the head of my church, election posters for my elected representative and slogans demanding the all out genocide of my community appear on Bonfires on the 11th night. I would appreciate it if you stopped trying to trivialise this practice.
Secondly, where in this thread has anyone been supportive of the Dissidents. I would advise you to read the post again, and realise that the people leaving the comments are not supporting the violence, but rather trying to explain that 9 times out of 10, there would be no violence if the OO wised up and stayed out of areas where they are not wanted!

@LOL (laugh out loud)

You may be conflating supporters of the GAA with supporters of the RIRA. That misunderstanding has happened in the past, but I know and you know it's bollocks, almost as profoundly bollocks as your understanding of Orange history. There's nothing particularly bitter about the burning of the antichrist if that's what ya think the Pope is; in fact it's a principle even of Roman Catholicism that the antichrist and its works ought to be rejected.

As for burning the Tricolour, well that's just silly and wrong, but it's a political expression, isn't it, and none of the Tricolour is a cross, so there's bugger all sacrilegious about it.

I'm not a member of the Orange, and wouldn't be eligible to be, if you know what I mean (wink wink), but I get it, and plenty of my family have been deeply involved. It's hardly medieval, even if that were something which differentiated it from the Catholic orders.

The guys rioting were just wee hoods chucking stuff for the craic, to be fair.

Peaceful protests, yes.

But spides need to have a word with themselves.

I see the young Orange boys from Queen's have been out in force on the Gown website if the number of clicks on the thumbs beside each comment is anything to go by.

The comments that they have clicked the 'thumbs down' option on contain some seriously valid points, and by dismissing them they are arguably showing themselves up to be bigoted and completely ignorant of reality, and particularly the reality of the modern day context.

The "tradition" and "culture" of Orangeism is medieval, and not in a way that should be historically celebrated, but instead it is something that should be left in the past. The OO was born out of a hatred for Catholics. This can hardly be denied when one looks at the commonplace actions carried out each year...the burning of tricolours, the burning of pictures of the Pope. There is a bitter hatred in a substantial number of Protestants who support this sort of thing which would not be found in nearly as many Catholics. And that is the honest truth of it.

@ nábídána

You talk about the Gown readership. This year The Gown were accused of being against the GAA and out to get the GAA due to a number of stories they covered. Some of the GAA crowd didn't have much time for the paper at all. But now, the readership is different? Have the GAA ones returned? I think you'll find that the "republican" comments under this piece contain what a remarkably high number of people would say is common sense.

@ Thomas

"It’s depressing to hear that republicans at Queens support dissident terrorists and criminal gangs."

Where are you getting this from? Where in the article stated that? Which of the comments under the article state that?

I used to date a fella who marched. He told me that on the 12th they burn guy fawkes-like creatures with pictues of the pope, gerry adams or other catholic and/or republican ppl's faces attached to it. I told him a story of how i was late to work once because there was a parade in my home town and how i had to park the car and run past the parade. And when I got the length of the chapel I blessed myself as is my habit when passing the tabernacle. He responded that had his friends seen me do that they would have "kicked my head in". And that oft they would do so if they came accross a "taig" on that date.

I think the 12th is just something the majority of us learn to put up with. But should we? I've never burned a picture of the Queen and heaven knows I never could, she's someone's granny. Why should they find burning images of the Pope (back then it would have been John paul II) acceptable, fun even? I think it fuels hatred on both sides.

@Thomas, where did you get your idea that Republican students at Queens' no longer support Sinn Fein. I, and the others who have posted here have not questioned the fact that the activities of the dissidents were a key point in the trouble, but we are also emphasising (as Gerry Kelly did)that the primary problem is the insistence of the Orange Order to strut where they are not wanted.
Further, while this may be difficult for some Unionist observers to grasp, or indeed stomach, there are no 'problems at the heart of Republicanism at large'. What we have, are small groups with little or no popular support. While they may be capable of the occasional action, it is no more so than their Loyalist opposite numbers, who, I might add, are supposed to have decommissioned. It was not that long ago that the Loyalists wrecked Whiterock, firing 50 shots at the police, not half a dozen. The trouble at ardoyne could have been avoided, failure to do that enabled the dissers to take advantage!

ben writes in his article that trouble occurred in areas where no parade passes such as bogside and lake street lurgan, how can parades be the cause here, parades are simply an excuse for republican youths ignorant of orange history and culture and off school for summer to make merry, and nice to see the parades commission get slated from all sides rather than hiding behind its ruling when it bans parades and ignores republican events such as the armed forces day protest or eirigi events, please try to understand that over 3,000 orange walks take place a year the vast majority of which involve men walking a short distance to church on a sunday morning, the less than three percent in any way controversial are made controversial by the actions of those opposed to a peaceful democratic process outside the legal system, how ridiclous to blame the orange and shift the blame from the problems at the heart of republicanism at large

The problem is where the lines blur between dissidents and republicans. I don't know anyone who supports the marches through the ardoyne. I don't know anyone who understands the antagonistic marches. These are not comparable to St Paddy's day as for one thing it isn't even a public holiday. Whereas the 12th and 13th both are. St Paddy's day celebrations tend to be smaller, more local and don't take up as much of an area as possible. I have yet to meet someone who properly can explain to me the "great tradition" that is Orangeism without it being to do with Catholic hating or through loyalist intimidation. Most Protestants I know who are proud of their culture do not count the 12th as a representation of their tradition and generally leave the country as well. I have never heard of Unionists leaving the country for Paddy's day because they don't feel safe.

can I ask, what Catholic Area, the twelfth July parade goes through on the evening of the twelfth july on the crumlin road?

It goes past shops, shops on a major urban road .... shops that because it is a bank holiday, probably wont be open, unless it is to sell the occasional packet of pall mall

We evacuated the country over the 12th and are very glad we did. Anecdotally, we were sitting having breakfast in a hostel in Edinburgh with some foreign students and they asked what was going on, with the BBC pictures on the TV in front of us. We gave a quick explanation of it all which they seemed to take on board. Then the BBC showed images of the Irish flag being burned, at which point their opinion immediately changed. Seems that if that happened in their country, the public outrage would be un-tempered. And quite rightly so.

Alas in our wee country, horribly antagonistic actions like this are celebrated as cultural. Defended as traditional. Hell they'r even promoted as part of "Orangefest", which is more than slightly offensive itself. For an accurate picture of the difference between St. Patricks day and the 12th, ask people from other countries because to them it is as clear as day.

Still, the actions of rioters were unacceptable but Im not sure they are actually in any way tied to the parades; the violent aspect of these demonstrations has been detached from the real dissent. In fact the idea of recreational rioting is not new at all, it's just more evident as it is no longer masked by politics. This is actually a step towards improvement in my mind, albeit one tinged with the inevitable dismay of our country embarrassing itself on the world stage again. I have taken to calling the whole affair simply "b*st*rds day out", and I do mean that for both sides.

And for the record the BBC did show the peaceful protest getting batoned, which is the kind of civil disobedience I can get behind.

It's depressing to hear that republicans at Queens support dissident terrorists and criminal gangs. Sinn Fein blamed the dissidents for the violence and said it was unjustified. Why do republicans at Queens no longer support Sinn Fein and their strategy of peace?

Also if President McAleese who is from Ardoyne can welcome Orangeism to the Aras why can republicans at Queens welcome Orangeism? We need a shared and peaceful future.
The cause of the violence? Quite simple, it was a preplanned attach on peace and democracy by the dissidents. Sinn Fein recognize that, why don't republicans at Queens?

Well, now. The profile of the Gown's readership really hasn't changed at all, has it? Who was rioting? Who was shooting at PSNI officers? Which LOL dropped the firestone onto the policewoman's head? Where would a Temperance Lodge get beer bottles for Molotov cocktails anyway?

If it makes nationalists happy to blame the Orange Order for the breakdown of c&c in Republican areas, rather than facing the unsettling reality that a new uncontrollable dissident entity has emerged which doesn't subscribe to a rights agenda

The route had been accepted by the parade's comission and I believe the sit down protest was in the way. Unfortunately, it was the PSNI's duty to clear those in the way even if it was peaceful.

All hail O'Flanagan. Good common sense. Something that is completely lacking in so many aspects of life the world over.

WHY were they protesting? Excellent question.

Answer that you Orange supporters.

(Calls to mind WHY the marchers were marching on Bloody Sunday. A reason often ignored)

The piece is good but leaves out an essential part of the events that occured. There was in fact a peaceful sit down protest by up to 200 people, which was eventually battoned off the road. Members of this protest attempted to dissuade rioters and condemned the subsequent violence.

The point here is that even peaceful protests will be treated harshly in order to force through a parade the people of Ardoyne clearly don't want near them. It's chillingly similar to a KKK parade being forced through a black neighbourhood in the USA.

So while condemning those who took part in rioting, why not look at the actual reason why they took part? Take off the blinkers, drop the "dissident Republican" conspiracies and analyse the events in a logical way, some people's comments afterward sounded like a Daily Mail editorial.

@Emmy

It seems that the Orange Order revel in the violence their parades invoke. And why wouldn't they? It makes some misguided young republicans (and loyalists, don't forget) act like complete idiotic disgraces, and then the OO can come on the news and talk about all the opposition they face when all they want to do is celebrate their "culture". Marching in their own areas wouldn't be their cup of tea at all Emmy.

Culture it might be, but is it necessary to march through Catholic areas as part of this culture? I'm not going to get dragged into a debate about the existence of the Orange Order, it exists and there is nothing we can do about that. If they want to march, let them march, but why does it have to be through Catholic areas where it is clear that there will be trouble? As one other poster pointed out, what would happen if St. Patrick's Day marches went into Protestant areas?
The culture argument holds no ground in terms of where the marching takes place. It taunts the local communities who have to put up with it and reinforces the notion that one particular culture takes precedence over another.
However, it does not excuse the violence, nor the use of children by dissidents to carry out their own warped agenda. The parades commission have to stop appeasing the Orange Order particularly when it is so evident that this kind of trouble will happen in hot spots. Why is this allowed to happen every year? I'm not saying that there wouldn't have been violence, because these people hardly need an excuse, but much of it probably would have been avoided.
Again no excuse, but marching through these areas is actually giving these people an excuse to carry out these vile acts.

Culture?

Well, what IS culture exactly?

It's surely not massive bonfires which are tremendously horrific eye-sores on which tri-colours and pictures of the Pope are burned...oh and nearby houses to boot. It's surely not the mere act of walking down a road on which said marchers aren't wanted. It can't be an event which sparks sectarian hatred and violence, provoking attacks which result in serious injury.

Or maybe I just don't know what culture is.

Frank, when culture such as this carries the possibility of violence there is a problem. It may not be rammed down their throats everyday but there is surely a case to be made to reroute parades if this can happen one day (or four) a year.

As posters above have said the AOH or St. Patricks parades are polite to ignore areas they aren't welcome. Ben's not sying the OO should be banned, just have a bit more grace and think about the situation as a whole, which, surely, is quite an open minded view?

Culture, please! If protestant cultue is based on the premise that Catholics are second class citizens then the North is in a worse state of affairs than most people realise. For most right minded people, the antics of the OO are anti-culture, and and belong to an episode of history that should remain just that, history. If culture means the celebration of the subjugation of another, then thats not something we should be should be celebrating in the 21st century!